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Message: 5145
Author: Daniel
Date: 23/11/2005
Subject: Andrew's first playtest of "Mind Control" - Daniel's reply
First of all, I want to say again that I am very grateful to you,
Andrew, for your detailed comments about the Club version of "Mind
Control" :-) . I was also utterly flattered by your various positive
opinions, because hearing from you that a room is cleverly designed
is probably the highest praise a JSW author can get :-) :-) .
I have modified some things according to / along the lines of your
suggestions. I am wondering about some of the other ones. Following
are some replies, explanations and comments.
1. The geography problem and "The Mystic Room of Many Exits"
I do admit that geography is a problem in "MC". I also think that
there is little that can be done about it at this stage of
development.
In fact, when I was playtesting the game before the Club release, I
got so frustrated at having to follow the same paths over and over
again that I introduced "The Mystic Room of Many Exits" [113], the
last major addition to the game. This room makes the game much more
navigation-friendly, provided you take its exits in the right order.
My inspiration for "The Mystic Room of Many Exits" came from Stuart
J. Hill's "Utility Cubicles" and the sequence "The Green Room" "The
Red Room" "The Blue Room", which makes the navigation easier
between various points of the game. And I hope that the word "Mystic"
justifies to an extent the fact that the exits take you to unexpected
places :-) . Or would "Mysterious" be better, as it's a mystery where
each of the exits takes you?
Taking this into account, I can say that if the right path is
followed from the start of the game, the whole game is not that
terrible as far as navigation is concerned. There are some routes
which have to be taken twice, but they are not very long and,
hopefully, should not really be irritating to the player.
In view of the above, it would probably be good to provide the player
with an optimal, most efficient route (there isn't just one, I would
say there are several equally efficient variants), so that he/she
does not have to waste their time wandering around. It is a
controversial solution, though, because it may spoil the pleasure for
those of us who do have more time and are willing to dedicate it to
wandering around JSW games and (painfully) discovering things
themselves. What's more, there are several "hidden" rooms or routes
(like the cloud walk you revealed in your post), so if I make the
optimal path "public", I will have to mention all of those (so that
nobody has to go back after missing a secret room), and that will
definitely be a bad spoiler. I have decided to solve the problem in
the following way please, let me know, Everybody, whether you think
it's a good idea:
a) In the coming days, very soon, I will upload a file to my folder
in the Files section with the description of the suggested optimal
route in "MC". Everyone who is interested in dealing with the game
efficiently and not wasting their time to wander around will be
welcome to download the file and use it.
b) I will include the same file as a separate "spoiler" text file
with the final release of the game.
In this way everyone interested in a "quick" route will be provided
with it, while those who prefer to take their time and discover
things on their own will not be forced to read spoiler information.
Do you think it's a fair solution?
2. The room-names problem
Andrew wrote:
> Of course, in a game which reuses many existing rooms, you may feelNo, I always thought it was more important to stick to one consistent
> you wish to copy the room-names exactly, but since you've already
> modified the rooms in other ways...
rule throughout the game than keep the original room-names exactly.
And since Sendy hasn't screamed at me yet...
> One minor quibble is that the room-names are not entirelyYes, I admit I thought long and hard what to do with the room-names
> consistent in their usage of upper/lower case: for example, the
> nouns and adjectives in this game's room-names usually
> start with a capital letter, while the prepositions and articles
> usually start with a lower-case letter, but there are exceptions
> (it seems that the room-names containing a verb resort to sentence
> case for some reason).
and I wasn't entirely happy with any solution I could think of.
In the end I decided to adopt the following convention: the room-
names should follow standard spelling rules used for titles, with the
exception of names which are sentences, where sentence-case should be
applied.
It seemed to me that it was a reasonable rule and that it generally
followed what Matthew Smith did in the original game (even though he
wasn't entirely consistent). In the original JSW the room-names: "I'm
sure I've seen this before..", "We must perform a Quirkafleeg"
and "Dr Jones will never believe this" are sentences and they are
spelled like sentences (assuming that "Quirkafleeg" is a proper
name). At the same time, the names "Out on a limb", "A bit of tree"
and "On top of the house" do not stick to the rule general rule, but
I think this is just because Matthew Smith wasn't such a
perfectionist as some of us are...
So, to sum up, I think I can:
- either stick to the rule I adopted
In this case there are some rooms whose names are problematic for me,
because they are not really sentences, but they kind of look like
sentences. I am referring specifically to: "Just yer average room,
really" [036] and "No use crying over spilled milk!" [088], and, to a
lesser extent, "Squggle sqiggle squigle squiggle" [064].
- or apply the general rule "the nouns, adjectives and verbs in the
room-names usually start with a capital letter, while the
prepositions and articles usually start with a lower-case letter
(unless the name begins with them)"
What do you all think, especially those of you who pay attention to
linguistic details?
3. The description of the game-engine
Andrew wrote:
> In the scrolly, it says "128k JSW engine". I take issue with thisYes, I agree and I have changed it according to your suggestion. And
> on two grounds:
> 1. Although some computer-scientists do use 'k' for "kilobyte"
> (1024 bytes), it's more standard to use capital 'K' (or even 'KB',
> though not in Spectrum-circles), since little 'k' is a common
> abbreviation of kilo- (1000).
> 2. "128K JSW engine" could mean JSW128 or JSW64. So I suggest you
> change it to "JSW128 engine".
I will keep it this way, unless John objects strongly, because I took
the lower-case "k" from the scrolly in "Jet Set Willy 128" v. 0.04
hacklevel 7 (John actually uses it twice, first to say "Jet-Set Willy
128k" and then to give himself credit for "128k code" :-) ).
Andrew wrote:
> But the scrolly contains two sentences giving credits for graphics,Now they have been merged into one.
> with some overlap.
4. The problem of getting 'hanged' (infinitely stuck between two
rooms) on a very short rope when trying to jump up into the room
above
I was aware of this problem, which concerns three rooms in the game
"Clouds over the Plain. No Rain" [046], "The Elusive Passage
continues" [091] and a third room whose name I will not mention at
this point. I was really unhappy about it, but even though I gave it
much thought, I have not been able to invent any reasonable solution.
Does anyone have any clever ideas? Or shall we just confide in the
players' alertness they can only land on these ropes after falling
from above or having been to the room above, so they should know that
there is nothing above the ropes and they will get 'hanged' if they
try to jump up.
5. Specific room comments
a) "Sky Landing" [001]
Andrew wrote:
> In particular, a JSW player should be able to fall off the bottomI agree, this is a very important point.
> of the screen from a height of four (or fewer) character-rows
> without expecting an infinite-death scenario.
In spite of the above, I would rather leave "Sky Landing" as it is,
because:
- When you stand on the first, second or third ledge counting from
the left, the infinite-death scenario below is, IMO, absolutely fair,
because you can clearly see you are too high to be able to drop down
safely.
- When you stand on the fourth ledge from the left (or second from
the right), the infinite-death scenario below /is/ kind of unfair in
the sense that the player is standing at a height of four character-
rows, so according to the above postulate he/she could expect to be
able to drop down safely. However, taking into account the whole
design of the room, I think that players instinctively should not try
doing it. I am also afraid that adding Fire-cells in the top or
bottom row would spoil the room design. I will leave it up to Sendy
if she decides Fire-cells are needed, I will add them, if not, than
you'd better watch out, you all-too-confident players! :-)
- The first ledge on the right is OK, because you are
actually /meant/ to step off it and fall down.
Plus the whole thing is very early into the game, so even if somebody
falls into an infinite death scenario without having saved a snapshot
first, he/she will not have much terrain to replay.
b) "Coming Down" / "Two Signs and a Vision" [007 / 027]
Andrew wrote:
> (...) there is a nasty infinite-death scenario [in "Coming Down"]This general rule is something I am wondering about. After all, if
> if you walk in after collecting the item in "Two Signs and a
> Vision" [27]
> ___A JSW player should never encounter infinite death by "walking"
> out of a screen even if they should have seen the hazard on their
> way in just a few moments before.
you MUST have seen the danger, but didn't take it into consideration,
it's your problem, isn't it? How does everybody feel about this rule?
because myself I'm not really sure...
This is one of the places where I will ask Sendy to decide :-) . If
you think, Sendy, that it should be modified, let me know and I will
do it (either rearranging the bottom left-hand side of "Coming Down"
or eliminating the green flower altogether, whichever way you prefer).
c) "... nor this" [017]
Andrew wrote:
> If you enter this room at the top-left, you can walk back leftI have modified the room according to your suggestion.
> through the wall into an infinite death scenario in [95] (...)
> ___Replacing the two Earth-cells at (1,0) and (2,0) with Fire-cells
> would force the player to walk right into this room to avoid being
> killed repeatedly on entry, and would eliminate the above IDS.
Andrew wrote:
> But the bigger question is: why make this a one-way exit at all?The first, "historic" reason is that I wanted to use the moving-
vertical-line horizontal guardians Sendy's invention, I believe
again, and I thought they fitted nicely in "Failed Suicide Attempt
Vol. 2" [095].
The second reason is that since it is a one-way exit, the player
later has to return to "Failed Suicide Attempt Vol. 2" in order to
climb up the rope. Because of this, they have to perform the
difficult jump from the platform onto the rope twice.
The third reason is that the one-way exit actually fits in quite
nicely with the most efficient route through the game, because you
get to "The Mystic Room of Many Exits" very soon I hope you will
agree with it after you have read the "Spoiler" file I will release.
d) "... and wound up here!" [024]
Between releasing the Club version and reading your comments I
actually came to the same conclusion: superjump is not needed in this
room. So I have modified it slightly and eliminated superjump.
e) "A Ruined Lookout" [025] and "The Underground Torture Chamber"
[110]
Andrew wrote:
> ___But, when coming up from [110], I omitted to take the leftmostThis is one instance where I'd rather not grant your request.
> item before leaving this room, and I'll have to pay for this
> mistake later in my playtest, much to my frustration.
> Please could we have a workaround, such as an Earth-cell at (9,9)
> or better still a two-way exit from [110]?
If /you/ omitted to take the leftmost item in "A Ruined Lookout", a
lot of players (who won't have read this message) will make the same
mistake. And if they'll have to pay for it with frustration tough
luck!
I am actually very proud of the way I modified and placed this room
of Sendy's from "Strangel 2": you see the leftmost item, but cannot
collect it unless you come for it from below, and you cannot go below
unless you jump through the ILB, and you cannot jump through the ILB
unless you get your moves right in the adjacent room, manoeuvring
between two guardians and four stationary Fire-cells, and all of this
on the conveyor!
f) "Underground Pyramid" [037]
Andrew wrote:
> But I don't think you intended the ILB at the bottom-left, whichNo, I didn't intend it. Thanks for noticing. I changed the lowest
> dumps you to infinite death in [105].
left-hand side stone of the pyramid from Water-cell to Fire-cell, so
that you cannot jump through the ILB any more.
g) "Rope Defect" [039]
Andrew wrote:
> Only an expert will conclude that it's possible to jump onto theYes, it is :-) .
> rope from the bottom-left, but this game is targeted at expert
> players... isn't it? :-)
Now, this design pattern is Sendy's merit it appears this way
in "The Unlucky Seven", in the room "clingon!" of "mind control".
Sendy later modified it, so that it's easier in "Where's Woody". She
even thought it was too difficult for "Mind Control", but I really
want to keep it the way it is I love the frustration of not being
able to jump onto the rope, and having to try so many times :-) .
h) "A Nightmarish Walk in the Clouds" [044]
The problem of Water and Fire looking completely alike okay, it's
fair enough criticism (and I am pretty sure Sendy will express it,
too, when she gets to this point). I have modified the Fire cell
slightly, so that it's not identical to Water any more (not /very/
different either, though :-) ).
i) "Outside the Castle Tower" [047], "The N trance Hall" [048]
and "Climbing up the Castle Tower" [059]
Andrew wrote:
> "Outside the Castle Tower": A very attractive and atmosphericI have eliminated the BRIGHTness according to your suggestion,
> screen, marred only by the BRIGHTness of the Fire-cells which makes
> them look garish (ditto re. [48, 59]).
Andrew. However, since the colours were taken from Sendy's "The N
trance Hall", if you want to preserve the BRIGHTness, Sendy, let me
know, and I will put it back in spite of Andrew's preference :-) .
j) "The Rugged Mountain Top" [049]
Andrew wrote:
> (...) it's rather unfair to embed a Ramp-cell amongst the identical-Okay, I admit it is unfair, and I promise I will avoid this kind of
> looking Fire-cells to hide the fact that you can jump off the right
> hand edge of the screen (I spotted the Ramp-cell when I lost a
> life...)
trick in the future (I think it would be justified, though, if there
was some other indication, e.g. in the room layout, that there must
be a way to get to the room on the right).
In "Mind Control" I will rather leave it as it is. A kind of
compensation will be the "Spoiler" text file, because those who will
read it will know where they have to jump.
k) "Back to Life, Back to Reality" [[051], "Anywhere but in the
Water" [052]
I have changed the initial direction of the black fish at the left
edge of "Everywhere but in the Water", so that one gets a fraction of
a second more to turn back when entering from the left via the room-
path [98 up, 12 right, 51 right]. This should solve the problem of
the player getting killed by the black fish unjustly.
Now, it is perfectly possible and even not that difficult, after
you've done it once to enter "Everywhere but in the Water" from the
left and pass it to the right you just need to do it /below/ the
black fish, sort of half-buried in the ground. In fact, it's the only
way to collect the lower-second-from-the-left item which seems to be
buried in the ground.
In order to get the item, you need to start already in "Back to Life,
Back to Reality" on your way to the right "half-buried" into the
ground (which is Water, of course). When you do it this way, the
rightmost part of "Back to Life, Back to Reality" does not seem such
an immense challenge after all but maybe that's because I've
practised the manoeuvre so many times! :-)
Also, I have corrected the name "Everywhere but in the Water",
changing the "B" to lower case. Thanks for pointing that one out.
l) "The heat has melted the snow" [055]
Andrew wrote:
> I like the wolf(?) sprite, (...)The "wolf" sprite is half of Herve Ast's gargoyle sprite from "JSW in
Paris" :-) . In "Mind Control" I used the gargoyle sprite in its full
form once (in "The hall needs no decorating now" [003] indeed it
doesn't with the gargoyle hanging from the ceiling :-) ) and in its
partial form several times.
m) "Climbing up the Castle Tower" [059]
Andrew wrote:
> Trying to jump for the upper item is a prime example of where itJust as a bit of self-advertisement: "Climbing up the Castle Tower"
> looks like you should be able to make a certain manoeuvre in JSW,
> but you can't.
is practically a copy (with changed cell-graphics and colours and
guardian sprites) of the room "Upper Balcony" [32] from my first
game "Willy's New Mansion".
n) "Be careful what you choose!" [063]
Andrew wrote:
> It's unfair for a JSW player to encounter infinite death by fallingFair criticism. Let's see...
> off the bottom of the screen from a height of four (or fewer)
> character-rows especially from just *one* character-row!
>___I would eliminate the infinite death and rename this room to
> something more appropriate (I don't approve of playing-hints in
> room-names anyway).
This room, as well as the one below ("You chose falling" [065]) come
from Sendy's otherwise excellent set of rooms contained in the
file "New" of "The Unlucky Seven".
The name of "You chose falling" is evidently tied to the name of the
room to the right "Our survey said... swinging" [066]. The
infinite-death scenario between "Be careful what you choose!"
and "You chose falling" in turn justifies the name "You chose
falling", I guess.
The original name of "Be careful what you choose!" in "The Unlucky
Seven" is "as good a starting place as any!" (it was to be the
initial room). I changed it because it didn't make sense in "Mind
Control", and I decided to tie it in with the room below.
I have now modified "Be careful what you choose!" so that there is no
infinite-death scenario when walking off of any platform (only if you
jump, and consciously time your jump to go below the dark-blue
guardian but that would be a stupid thing to do, I think). However,
I think that in this case the names of the two rooms need to be
modified, because they don't make much sense any more ("Be careful
what you choose!" and "You chose falling"). Sendy, do you agree with
this modification and, if so, can you think of nice new names for
these rooms?
o) "The Frustration Machine" [067]
Andrew wrote:
> "This room isn't frustrating it's delightful! (...)"I absolutely agree. This is Sendy's room great job, Sendy!
p) "The Elusive Passage" [070]
Andrew wrote:
> When entering at the bottom-left, you have to try to jump over theThis is fair criticism, too. I have modifying the room slightly so
> shaft (which any good JSW player knows is impossible) in order to
> be caught by the rope in the room below.
> _____If you just fall down the left-hand side of the shaft (which
> looks like the safer option on the grounds that you're walking
> rather than jumping into an unfamiliar room), you encounter
> infinite death in the room below.
that while the player may still make the above mistake (and pay for
it with unjust infinite death), they should be much less likely to do
so, because there are sort of steps on the right-hand side of the
shaft, going down, so I hope that the player will be likely to take
them rather than drop from a higher "cliff" on the other side of the
shaft.
The change makes it possible to jump over the shaft in both
directions (on the lower level), which is an additional benefit, I
think, because it makes the game a trifle more navigation-friendly.
r) "Scary Dungeon" [097]
Andrew wrote:
> Atmospheric and fun to play, this is the best example of a ramp-Another bit of self-advertisment: "Scary Dungeon" is a developed
> conveyor (as well as a conveyor-ramp) I've ever seen. I almost
> always write off ramp-conveyors as an ugly construct when writing
> my own rooms, but here it works well.
version of the room "The Cellar" [19] from "Willy's New Mansion".
s) "Yes! Willy's a lucky bastard!!!" [098]
Andrew wrote:
> Are you aware that it's possible to take the bottom-right exit?I was aware of this problem and unhappy about it, but I didn't want
> This sets you on the following bizarre room-path: [right to 113,
> left to 6, right to 2, left to 6].
to change anything in "The Mystic Room of Many Exits" [113] because I
thought it would be a change for the worse aesthetically. However,
since you mentioned it, I have now modified the bottom-right of "The
Mystic Room of Many Exits" putting the "standard" two Fire-cells
there, so that the player has to keep walking to the right or else
he/she will get killed repeatedly.
Andrew wrote:
> _____And if you jump through the overhead wall-block at (0,0), youThanks for pointing that out, I have corrected it, too.
> can then walk left out of [12], which wraps back to [12].
6. A very general consideration
Andrew wrote:
> I'm not really keen on the idea of JSW games having more than 64Not to defend "JSW: MC" at all (it's not /that/ huge, it only has
> rooms anyway - with so many MM/JSW games, and so little time in my
> life to play them, I prefer JSW in smaller doses.
just over 100 rooms excluding the final sequence), but just in very
general terms this is a controversial preference, because:
a) Arguably it takes a comparable amount of time to play one 256-room
game and four 64-room games. The 256-room game will almost certainly
take longer to play, but it depends on its geography. If the layout
is consciously navigation-friendly, the difference may be minimal
(e.g. you have four centrally-located rooms and four sections with 63
rooms each; each of these section is practically played as if it were
a separate game and at the end takes you back to the central rooms).
b) In such case the postulate of games not having more than 64 rooms
because of the lack of time to play them could practically be
translated as: Don't design so many games, because I don't have the
time to play them. Of course time constraints are a huge factor for
many (most? all?) of us, but discouraging designing games would
certainly go against the spirit of this Group, wouldn't it? :-)
c) The size of the playing field is only one factor which determines
how much time must be spent if someone wants to play the game to
completion, and I would say that it may not even be the most
important one. More important is often the degree of the challenge
posed by the game. So while someone might complete Herve Ast's "Jet
Set Willy in Paris", which has almost 200 rooms (not counting the
final sequence), in two or three hours perhaps, one might spend
dozens of hours struggling with "We Pretty" or "Goodnight Luddite"
which have only 64 rooms each (and never complete them, if they're
not expert players :-) ).
So the "time problem" could also be rephrased as follows: "I'm not
really keen on the idea of JSW games being very difficult anyway -
with so many MM/JSW games, and so little time in my life to play
them, I prefer JSW in smoother doses", or, more bluntly: Don't design
so difficult games because I don't have the time to play them. But
such postulate would also go against the spirit of this Group and
against the very essence of Broadsoft, wouldn't it? :-)
d) The "time problem" is also related to the question of why we play
JSW games at all, and to the question of "getting results"
versus "spending your time pleasantly". Of course somebody may want
to play games quickly e.g. a JSW author who wants to see what other
authors have done, but has little time. This person needs /results/,
and needs them as quickly as possible, because what he/she really
wants to spend their time on is designing, but for this they need the
knowledge of the existing games. Their desire to be able to progress
through the existing games swiftly is completely justified, of
course. However, there may be another person, who just wants to be
able to roam around the rooms and leisurely discover new JSW worlds,
perhaps even without really wanting to complete the game. This person
is looking for /pleasure/, because spending time playing JSW is
pleasant for him/her, so the more time they can spend playing a game,
the more happiness they get. And they could say: Why does this game
have /only/ 64 rooms? Or: Why is this game /so/ easy? depending on
what they get most of their joy from (exploring large numbers of
rooms or overcoming difficulties).
Okay, forgive my "massive" post. We won't have much time to
play /any/ MM/JSW games if we have to read such long messages, will
we? :-)
Daniel
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