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Message: 5306

Author: Daniel

Date: 15/12/2005

Subject: Andrew's second and third playtest of "Mind Control" - Daniel's rep

 

Andrew, thanks a lot again for all of your comments and suggestions!

Thank you also for the explanation about the items in "Dangerous
Rapids" and "The Underground River". I know what you mean, now. I
haven't playtested it yet, but it looks like it's going to increase
the challenge significantly, because since the player will be on the
conveyor, he/she will have to get the jump exactly right the first
time, otherwise they will have to go back through several rooms to
try again.

Responding to various things you wrote:


Andrew wrote:

> I have completed Mind Control with a toilet-time of 3:27pm!

Congratulations! You are the first person I know of (other than
myself) who has completed the game (the Club version, of course)!


Andrew wrote:

> It's the first time I've ever completed a JSW128 game,

Not true. I bet you have completed "Party Willy" JSW128 version! :-)


Andrew wrote:

> and the spectacular toilet-run just made my jaw drop!

Thanks a lot! It's very nice to hear, and should be an encouragement
for others to try and get there (without using the very useful POKEs
you mentioned :-) ).


Andrew wrote:

> [4] "A Rope in the Sky? Impossible!!!": It's unfair that Water and
> Fire look identical.

Okay, I've corrected it.


Andrew wrote:

> [23] "In the Sandhills": I actually thought this was impossible to
> cross from left to right for several minutes, until I realised
> that you have to jump through an ILB from the room to the left
> ("Outside the Castle" [47]). If this jump isn't pixel-perfect,
> it's a really unfair infinite-death scenario - as it is if you're
> standing on Row 9 in [47] (the highest Earth-cells in that room
> being in Row 8).

Yeah, but it will have to stay that way. I will put a warning in
the "optimal route" text file.


Andrew wrote:

> [40] "Sendy will never believe this..." / "... nor this!!!" [17]:
> There's a mutual infinite-death scenario between these rooms if
> you move between them at the bottom.

Okay, I've fixed it, and I put there two items to collect,
introducing a double guardian challenge which requires jumps through
overhead ILBs. If you get frustrated losing lives there, all ye
valiant players – blame Dr. Broad! :-)


Andrew wrote:

> [43] "End of the Road: Milk Factory":

(snip)

> I presume that the laterally-inverted and video-inverted
> Ramp graphic is intentional - it actually looks much better than
> it has a right to look. ;-)

Actually, Sendy drew my attention to it in the meantime, and it got
changed :-( . Hopefully it looks even better now (certainly more
traditional).


Andrew wrote:

> [60] "A Glimpse of 'JSW: 2005 Megamix'": It's possible to fall
> into this room so far to the left as to suffer infinite death on
> the red moon.

Yes, and you can also suffer infinite death in several other places,
falling into "A Glimpse of 'JSW: 2005 Megamix'" from the room above.
But I believe these are fair infinite-death scenarios, because it's
a jumping challenge and the player knows he/she is taking their
chances. And no reasonable person will jump without taking a
snapshot first. Well, forgive me, those of you who think that taking
snapshots is cheating (DrUnKeN mAsTeR!!! ???), or still play on the
real Spectrum – if you complete "Mind Control" on the real Spectrum
you deserve a special prize – a PC with an emulator, perhaps? :-)


Andrew wrote:

> [74] "How on earth did you get here ?!":

(snip)

> _____I like the way you can jump straight up over the diagonal
> kangaroo. I've not seen that before.

/You/ have evidently coped with "The Devil's Workshop", Andrew, but
just a tip for those who will follow in your footsteps: jumping over
the red guardian on the ramp requires just this, a jump straight up.
Surprisingly (for me, at least) it seems that you can't pass the
guardian if you jump with your (Willy's) legs together, but you can
if you jump with your legs outstretched!


Andrew wrote:

> [90] "More than it seems": The invisible one-way teleporter is
> unfair, because the obvious route through this room entails
> collecting the rightmost item *after* clearing the middle.

This is true. I think I will leave it as it is, though, because:

- theoretically it is possible that someone will collect the middle
items without getting teleported, then collect the rightmost item,
and then start thinking of why the rooms is called what it's called
(and if they don't try again, they will leave the room without
discovering the teleporter, which will cause them frustration later
on);

- if somebody follows the "Optimal route" according to the text file
I am going to include with the game, they will know what to do. If
not, they accept the fact that they may have to retrace the same
paths several times, but it's their choice.


Andrew wrote:

> [112] "The Most Secret of All Places":

(snip)

> _____If you fall off the bottom of the screen to the right of the
> fire-guardian, it's infinite death. If you fall to the left of the
> fire-guardian, it's a shortcut to the top item.

This is a very important observation which reveals my mistake. It's
been fixed now, thanks!


Andrew wrote:

> "Mystic" sounds pretentious, implying religious mysticism rather
> than mystery (...)

That's what I thought and, that's why there are priest-like figures
in the room :-) .


Andrew wrote:

> In the version of JSW that I had for my real Spectrum, it was "We
> must perform a quirkafleeg"! It was only after my real Spectrum
> died that I realised I couldn't find an emulator-version with the
> little 'q', which begs the questions of exactly what version I had
> (a friend copied it for me), and whether there were any more
> differences.

That's very interesting. Doesn't it make you doubt everything in
this world and life, sometimes? :-)


Andrew wrote [proposing a solution for the getting-'hanged'-between-
two-rooms problem]:

> One solution would be to create new rooms above the rooms
> containing the ropes, which are clones of the rooms currently
> above them, but with a stand-onable cell in the bottom row,
> allowing Willy to drop safely back into the rope-room one cell to
> the left or right of where he fell in from a great height.

Yes, thank you, this is a great solution!

In "Falling through the Clouds" I had to do two things: solve the
rope problem, and introduce a conveyor above.
I fixed the rope problem according to Andrew's suggestion.
Then it took me around two hours to arrive at a satisfactory
solution with the conveyor, but thanks to it I introduced a couple
of additional elements: see Willy turn around in-mid fall, and don't
miss the item hidden in the clouds! :-)

"The Elusive Passage" – I fixed it according to Andrew's suggestion.


Andrew wrote:

> (I suspect that the changes I propose to the clone of "The Elusive
> Passage" may interfere with the changes you've already made to the
> room itself since the Club-release.)

No, actually they don't :-) .


"A Glimpse of 'JSW: 2005 Megamix'" – I fixed it according to
Andrew's suggestion. I also modified the starting position of the
red guardian a little bit, to make getting killed by it less
probable.


Andrew wrote (in relation to the problem of the IDS between "Two
Signs and a Vision" (027) and "Coming Down" (002):

> If an IDS can be eliminated without compromising the /technical/
> design of the room, it should certainly be eliminated. a JSW game
> should be as idiot-proof as possible when it comes to infinite
> death.

Sendy wrote:

> My rule of thumb is - if you have to enter a room, and the room is
> small, and you have to turn back, /then/ and only then should the
> player be expected to remember something like a sheer drop off the
> side of the screen, or walking straight into a trap. The idea being
> that there's no excuse for them to forget (and also it can be fun
> to know the designer is trying to get you to walk into the trap but
> giving you a fair chance).

I agree more with Sendy on this, because I believe that JSW idiots
should pay dearly for their mistakes! (even if it includes me from
time to time :-) ). However, I have modified "Two Signs and a
Vision" adding a Fire cell at the right edge of the room, so that
you have to jump over it if you want to exit the room after
collecting the item, and this jump carries you safely over the green
flower / metal trap (?) guardian in "Coming Down".


Daniel wrote (concerning the one-way exit from "Failed Suicide
Attempt Vol. 2" [095] and "... nor this!!!" [017]):

> The second reason is that since it is a one-way exit, the player
> later has to return to "Failed Suicide Attempt Vol. 2" in order to
> climb up the rope. Because of this, they have to perform the
> difficult jump from the platform onto the rope twice.

Andrew wrote:

> Which is not very pleasant IMO.

Look who's talking! The author who makes the player go TWICE
through "The Passage of the Marshes" (55) in "Jet Set Willy: Lord of
the Rings"!

Incidentally, speaking about fairness in JSW games, Andrew, you
admit in the text file accompanying "JSW: LOTR", concerning the
room "The Breaking of the Fellowship" (25):

"As the player, you have to decide whether to go left now, or
whether to turn right and make for Mordor immediately. If you make
the wrong choice, the quest will be irreversibly doomed to failure".

I would say that this breaks the (as yet inexistent rule): "A JSW
player should never have to face blind choices, which may make the
game impossible to complete". What do you say? :-)

Oh, incidentally, I absolutely loved your "LOTR" :-) (the hard
version :-) :-) ).

Andrew wrote:

> [11] "Entrance to the House": Right is a one-way exit to "Scary
> Dungeon" [97]. It makes little sense to go there from this point
> in the map. It would be better just to give the player a Promised
> Land view of that room (...)

Okay, I've done just that. But while I was at it, I added an
additional challenge in "Scary Dungeon" to make it even more
scary... If you get frustrated there – blame Dr Broad! :-)


Andrew wrote:

> [35] "Entrance to the Launching Pad": If you lose a life in this
> room after starting the toilet-run, and you last entered at the
> bottom-right, it's infinite death!

Yeah, I know, and I'm not very happy about it. But I think I'll
leave it as it is. I'll put a warning in the "Optimal Route" file.


Andrew wrote [about the room "Playing with Yourself" (054)]:

> _____If you jump up into the room above after collecting the item
> at (1,17) - a very natural thing to do if you miss the ILB - you
> are forced to accept an infinite-death scenario or reset the game.

Yeah, I'm not very happy about this one either, but I won't do
anything about it. Don't miss the ILB!


Andrew wrote:

> [66] "Our survey said... swinging": If you enter at the upper
> right, it's an extremely unfair infinite-death scenario!

Okay, I've fixed it. I put a Fire cell at (6,0) in "Platforms over
Spikes... Typical" to prevent the player from entering "Our survey
said... swinging" at the upper right.

By the way, Andrew, why do you put the vertical value first and the
horizontal second? For me the most natural convention would be (x,y)
where "x" is the horizontal value and "y" – the vertical value. And
I would also start counting from the lower left-hand corner.


Andrew wrote:

> [68] "Name something your Willy does": Turning in mid-jump? ;-)
> Entering this room via the rope in "The Devil's Workshop" [87] is
> a one-way exit which could be made fair with the following screen-
> layout:

(snip – layout described)

Done according to your suggestion, Andrew!


Andrew wrote:

> [71] "Almost a Kitchen Clone!": This room didn't by any chance
> originate in Sendy's yet-to-be-released Role Reversal, did it?
> Room 34 of Role Reversal bears a striking resemblance to this room.

I don't know where it originated – that's for Sendy to say – but I
took it from the file "New" in "The Unlucky Seven" package, room #
041.


Andrew wrote:

> [86] "Coming down toward Lake Surbiton": It's not for me to verify
> the geographical accuracy of this room with respect to the real-
> world Surbiton, but I have to commend you on the look of the
> mountains.

In the text file which will accompany the game I say:

"Probably there is nothing like 'Lake Surbiton', but the reference
is meant to be a tribute to Matthew Smith's original 'Manic
Miner'". :-)


Andrew wrote:

> [87] "The Devil's Workshop": A room which certainly lives up to
> its name, with the vicious triumvirate of guardians at the bottom-
> right! :-> The jump through the OILB to collect the embedded item
> is a nice touch, as is the stationary rope, and the moving
> forcefield guardians at the top-right.

The name of the room was inspired by "Satan's Shed" (023) from "We
Pretty" - Andrew, please forgive not keeping the original spelling
of your room's name! - but I always pronounce it this way in my
thoughts :-) .


Andrew wrote:

> [92] "Strange Forestlike Corner": An atmospheric room, and the way
> you have to fall/jump off the rope on either side is very
> innovative. A very clever room in terms of cellular construction.

Thanks! :-) It was actually finished as one of the last rooms,
because I kept changing its design, dozens of times, until I was
finally satisfied :-) .


Andrew wrote:

> [93] "Volcano Eruption": If you jump so as to take the upper right-
> exit in Rows 1 to 3, and then jump as you walk through the wall
> back into this room, you end up at the bottom-right of "Wow! It's
> so hot in here!!!" [30], which could easily be prevented with an
> Earth-cell at (0,31).

You are right, but the Earth cells in this room are actually the
flashing "volcano fire" cells. So if I put one where you suggest, it
would be rather illogical and spoil the design, I believe. I hope
that an astute player will know that he/she is supposed to climb the
rope and not leave the room by jumping up in the corner.


Andrew wrote:

> _____If you walk up the rope into Room 30 above, rather than
> jumping right off the rope, then you miss the item and (unless you
> have a recent snapshot to hand) have to take a detour through
> seven room-exits to get back to this room and try again.

That's right, and it is a deliberate design. If somebody follows
the "optimal route" according to the text file (yet to be prepared),
they will know what to do. If not, they will probably make the
mistake, but it will not cost them any lives, just some frustration
(or lives as well if they lose them on their way back to
the "Volcano Eruption", but they will probably be playing with the
infinite-lives POKE anyway).


Andrew wrote:

> [101] "Invasion of Almost Willy Clones!": Infinite death if you
> WALK in at the top-left (or if you jump from the far left edge of
> the room to the right [71]). Surely a Water-cell at (10,31) isn't
> too much to ask for?

Anything you ask, Andrew :-) .


Andrew wrote:

> [102] "The Large Slope": I have a conveyor-ramp just like this -
> with a vertical guardian at the top - in We Pretty's
> "INTHECHILLYSEETHEGUILDEDRISSOLES" [51].

Absolutely! This design pattern was copied from your game, from the
very room you mention. I may have failed to mention it in the
private message I sent you, but I never meant to leave it
uncredited, and in fact it has already been credited twice in the
text file accompanying the game (which is almost ready, but as yet
unreleased): in the section discussing "The Quirky Features and
Design Patterns" and then again in the description of Room 102.


Andrew wrote:

> You might consider making an easy version of Mind Control as a
> parallel product, though I haven't done such for my JSW games
> (with the exception of JSW:LOTR).

No, I think I'd rather leave it as it is. It's not so forbiddingly
difficult, after all, is it? And at some point I'll probably try to
record a .rzx walkthrough of the game (using the rollback feature
thousands of times :-) ), so that anyone stuck in the middle of it
(who doesn't want to bother to write to me or Sendy and ask what to
do) can download the file and see the solution. Or they can refer to
the "Optimal Route" text file.


Andrew wrote:

> I still feel I'm searching for the optimum blend of easy-to
> explore yet difficult-to-complete (...)

"Easy-to-explore yet difficult-to-complete" sounds like a very good
general rule to me. I hope that "MC" responds to this description at
least partially :-) .


Andrew wrote:

> (..) just as I'm searching for the optimum happy medium between
> tediously linear and frustratingly branching (I believe the answer
> is to organise the game in hierarchical clusters,
> where each cluster can be entered and exited only via its hub
> room, and each path eventually returns you to the choice-point
> (hub-room) so that you can take the alternative paths - each of
> which is marked as unfollowed with an item, as in "The Mystic Room
> of Many Exits").

This sounds like the perfect layout I tried to describe, in the case
of which playing a 256-room game would be a rough equivalent of
playing four 64-room games.


Andrew wrote:

> I would merely discourage authors from setting out to create a JSW
> game with more than 64 rooms unless there's a very good reason for
> doing so (to do justice to the concept of the game).

In spite of everything I have said so far I must agree that
extremely large games may become a little tedious. However, I
wouldn't really set the 64 rooms limit as a sort of "magic" number.
DrUnKeN mAsTeR!!!'s recent games, "Maria on Tour" and "Bizarre" are
both significantly larger than 64 rooms (they have 116 and 106,
respectively), but I think that no-one could possibly perceive that
as a drawback, the way they are designed.
I think that the limit set by JSW64 engines – 128 rooms in most
cases – is very reasonable.


Andrew wrote:

> And I would encourage authors embarking on a new JSW game to think
> very carefully about the map they're about to create.

Yes, I can't disagree with that!


Andrew wrote:

> When I playtested Goodnite Luddite on my real Spectrum - without
> the benefit of snapshots or the speed-up key (` in RealSpectrum) -
> I toilet-completed it in one four-hour sitting (with the help of a
> Paracetamol after two hours, I must admit).

I didn't know Paracetamol was helpful in struggling with MM/JSW
challenges :-) . Are there any other substances worth
recommending? :-) (any suggestions, DrUnKeN mAsTeR!!! ? :-) )


Andrew wrote:

> Difficulty is a linear factor in the time it takes to complete a
> game; geography can be an exponential one.

Well, it may be true, but it is also true that difficulty may become
an /absolute/ factor: if you get in a room and NO IDEA what to do
(because you are not familiar with a quirky feature of some kind,
for instance), you may spend days and nights thinking about it and
not progress at all.

This has been the case so far with my playing "MM: Ma jolie" – I've
been stuck in the third room ("Majolica"), and I still have no idea
how to pass it (see details in message # 4859 of August 6, 2005,
point g). Can someone help, please???


Andrew wrote:

> But I am a completist, and I can't play a new JSW game without
> thinking how much I want to complete this game (...)

Andrew also wrote (concerning the Club version of "MC"):

> It's the first time I've ever completed a JSW128 game (...)

So how come you haven't completed more JSW128 games? :-)


Andrew wrote:

> So nowadays I just have to play them all [MM/JSW games] on
> RealSpectrum (...)

No, not really. There are other good emulators, too... :-)

I've been using Vaggelis Kapartzianis's ZX32 most of the time. I
should try RealSpectrum one day, though, because it must be very
good if you like it so much :-) .


Andrew wrote:

> Right now, I'm having to think very seriously about how I might
> relax the criteria of my routines in order to rebalance the
> priorities of my life. I would certainly like more time for
> playing and editing JSW than I've given myself this year, and to
> be able to reply to emails/Group-messages at a greater rate than I
> am putting incoming emails aside to be replied to later.

Well, my humble suggestion would be: give a little bit more priority
to JSW over tennis :-) . I wouldn't dare advise you to give up
tennis altogether (I have no right to interfere with your life /that
much/, have I? :-) ), but why not relax tennis a bit, and do more
MM/JSW instead? :-)


Well, Andrew, thanks a lot again! I really appreciate all your
comments and suggestions, and I feel extremely flattered by all the
positive remarks you made about this effort of Sendy and yours
truly :-) :-) :-)


Daniel

 

 

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